Being and The World : a conversation about reality

Selected portions of a discussion thread on a serious Facebook site 

My comments thread on Carl Jung and Depth Psychology site in October 2023

Mike James

Did Jung have any understanding of the mathematics of frequency. I’m beginning to think, the more I read his works, that the collective is just different operating frequencies. As in physics, multiple frequencies can occupy the same space and not meet each other. Should I go home or what….

Myself : 

Frequencies may well be a key to other dimensional states. But mental state appear to be in a fundamentally different category from any physical state, even indicated by subtle frequencies. Today analytical idealism in philosophy is looking at what we have learned from science by turning over the evidence from.cosmology and quantum mechanics. Analytical idealist Bernardo Kastrup has developed a rigorous and detailed model of reality in which fundamental reality is MENTAL and gives rise to physical states and specific phenomena through a process described as DISSOCIATION, the fundamental ground state being a unified mental reality. Donald Hoffman approaches this mentalist standpoint from neuroscience describing the relationship between mental.and physical reality as the mental state being fundamental and the physical state being a dashboard projection from the brain to assist in individual and evolutionary survival in the physical realm.  But the physical realm is a 3D projection from a zero D mental state beyond spacetime - which agrees with Bell's Theorem about macro reality. In short, all vibrational states, even subtle states hypothesized to be in 4th or 5th dimensional space and beyond the detection scope of our instruments, are still PHYSICAL and therefore are not and cannot be the ground state of reality.  If the mentalist hypothesis seems too radical, consider what we DO know from physics: in the quantum zero field, virtual particles ( their reality in physical terms is debatable) pop out from apparently nothing - how can this be unless the ground state is non physical? Also from quantum mechanics, the most primitive state prior to the emergence of definite phenomena of any kind is the super position of all possible states of something that emerges from.this state of possibilities ( non physical) into a definite state ( physical) through probable wave collapse best defined by the Schrodinger Wave Function. The Many Worlds hypothesis tries ineffectually to save materialism as fundamental. It creates undemonstrable redundancies of bubble universes to an infinite level increasingly which makes it the least parsimonious and least demonstrable hypothesis ever. The idealist/mentalist interpretation putting Consciousness as fundamental is thr must elegant and parsimonious but are have to.admit that it cannot be described by scientific observation and is therefore a singularity; it can only be FACTORED in as a powerful but mysterious explanatory tool. If the idealist view is the most compelling, then even different frequencies of vibrations are not fundamental because the mental condition of the cosmos is not a physical state at all, having no mass, no velocity, no space, no physical properties but GIVES RISE to the physical world as a projection of the power of cosmic thought / awareness. Mystical as this might sound, it most elegantly and helpfully describes the world and its features as we know it today.

Mike James

Arjun L Sen if we imagine “nothing” as “something” missing/empty we have made “nothing” into “something” tangible

Edit…. I don’t know if tangible belongs in the sentence without destroying its mystery

Arjun L Sen your answer was incredibly satisfying

Myself

Mike James Hi Mike, I'm very glad you found my comments helpful. I would emphasise that I'm not trying to make anything up according to my personal notions but base them on what I have learned from the experts in quantum theory, practical quantum mechanics, AI studies and philosophy of science. The debates are raging today as materialism fights its last jihad against the heresy of metaphysicalism/ idealism which since the days of Kant are making a powerful comeback based on the recent findings from science over the last century. Nobody here is trying to resurrect "God" as rational people can all agree that religious mythologies are unhelpful and have caused more problems than they have solved even though healthy sane people have greatly benefited from the best aspects of religion.  But my idealist/ metaphysical inclination is based on reason : the science is telling us that the cosmos really is alive and conscious and NDE reports tell us that the Light cares deeply about us.  This may or may not be true but is certainly extremely interesting in so far as if we accept the premise that the universe is conscious then it must have intention and therefore it is of interest to know what the Cosmic Intention towards us might be. Even those scientists who have no truck with religious beliefs but are impressed with the Strong Anthropic Principle in cosmology like physicist and Templeton Prize winner Paul Davies state the cosmos not only seems to demonstrate consciousness indirectly through its dynamics and evolution in time but seems to "have been expecting us".  Astronomer Hugh Ross, though a convinced Christian, based his arguments on scientific facts and allows us to draw our inferences.  For instance he points out that trad cosmologists point out insignificant we are materially, specks on life on a speck like the Earth in an unimaginably vast universe. But looked at from the viewpoint of the evolution of consciousness, we are very significant : through beings like us the universe is able to contemplate itself ! All this looks eerily meaningful in a universe in which is is pretty hard to find the intervention of an Abrahamic God but actually not as hard to discern the workings of  Cosmic Mind beyond spacetime from which the spacetime cosmos we live in proceeds. The "inexplicable"  communication between mind and matter, the idealistic dilemma in science, is best solved by analytical idealism, as Kastrup points out, while a materialist standpoint fails to explain mind or consciousness or to reduce mind to matter via a theory of materialist monism which isn't working and hasn't been working since about 1920.

Mike James

Yes, so much to unpack forgive me, this a akin to non-duality or no?  Entropy would also mean we are all connected or no?  I thank you very much for the input

Your last comment manifested a paradox that I have not totally unwrapped

Arjun L Sen I still have to research the “dissociation” that I think needs more attention for my understanding. I think there is a clue in there

Myself

Mike James Dissociation means detachment from a joined ip grasp of reality.  Its a fragmentation of consciousness and is linked to various disorders. In analytical idealism as in Kastrup's model ( see 'The Idea of the World', ' Materialism is Baloney' and his many video lectures) our individual consciousnesses are dissociate from the cosmic consciousness by being linked into the material world perspective which breaks up unified reality into phenomena and forces well described by scientific laws. Observation and experience of phenomena requires a consciousness focused on phenomena so the consciousness of individuals ( and animals) is DISSOCIATED from cosmic consciousness SO THAT we may function and survive in the phenomenal world.  If we saw reality AS IT WAS ( a unified field of everything pulsating with energy but no discrete phenomena at all) we could not function at all.and would likely die within minutes or hours.  The brain - which is itself a phenomenon and thereby a projection of cosmic mind, is designed to control and orchestrate dissociation SO THAT we may function in the material world.  We evolved precisely for that to work. It is NOT designed to become aware of the underlying UNDIFFERENTIATED physical reality which is projected by undifferentiated cosmic consciousness or cosmic mind.  HOWEVER,  a tool can do many jobs and the human brain is a uniquely versatile tool. Through REASON and observation it can discover the workings of the material world.  And through MEDITATION and psychic practices it can trajn itself to shift attention away from its main task ( function in the material world) and encounter its undifferentiated and undissociated seamless unity with cosmic mind. Mystical insights like this from Richard Maurice Bucke ( Canadian doctor, 1872) to Michael.Collins ( U.S. astronaut,  1971) from scientifically trained Westerners are among the more remarkable cosmic discovery moments that lasted only minutes but completely transformed their lives and their outlooks. There are many others all over the world and some wrote well known books to try to explain what they learned.

Mike James yes, non duality as ground reality.  But that doesnt help us survive in the material world.  For this we need dissociative consciousness (I know my thoughts and experiences, not yours) and individual experiences of differentiated phenomena.

Douglas Dunlop

Arjun L Sen anything based on cosmology or quantum mechanics, is scientism, purely a philosophy created without any scientific structure whatsoever someone may have a detailed philosophy that they have developed their own reality through their own perspective perspective cannot be measured only empathized or sympathized the variables alone could be categorized as cosmic or quantum without shadow work they don’t break down there’s no sense in measuring the ceiling to find out the shape of the floor mental and physical states are just how we collect the things that matter mental and physical states are too easy to manipulate, but the heart has fundamentals I do believe in a dashboard, but I do not believe it has to be a projection dashboard can be an objective discernment through experiences in our own true scientific experiments in a physical state, if we were always on the defense, then the capacity of mental perception will be blinded by defense that’s actually called a character defect. Something we’ve use in the past to survive, but now inhibits our ability to progress a judgment from our own perspective, preserving us from what we don’t want to accept at the moment, but later can be analyzed, excepted, and forgotten. I would be a disservice to myself if I grab, would grab a pen and try to draw the shape of myself. 

Myself 

Doug Dunlap I believe that the path to knowledge consists in COMBINING different paths to knowledge.  The knowledge of the heart is the essence of our being.  But how does the heart know anything to have emotions, to find meaning? Meaning is found through experience in the phenomenal world. That's why this material world IS important. Undifferentiated ground state if reality is pure but by definition it is WITHOUT MEANING. In perfection there is nothing to learn.  Experience produces joys and sorrows, wonder and terror, beauty and ugliness. Reflection on these experiences and emotional reactions informs and enriches the heart and creates meaning.  There is no meaning without a STORY and the heart seeks that story. Only through the world of phenomena is there a story to give meaning. 

The problem with nondualism whether Eastern or Western is that by focusing on non dual reality they erase meaning and the needs of the heart.  By extinguishing the individual self they extinguish the STORY, the JOURNEY. 

In Vedic and Upanishafic nonduality you have the concept of TAT TWAM ASI ( Being, Knowledge Bliss) . But there is nothing to KNOW or to experience BLISS unless there us a STORY to be experienced.  This is why our IMPERFECT material world with its sorrows and its joys are essential to cosmos. It was MEANT to be this in order to create MEANING.MEANING enriches the undifferentiated cosmic consciousness by giving it a story it didn't have in just a field of infinite possibilities ( quantum suoerpodiyional state).

We learn from EVERYTHING,inner and outer exploration, and join up the dots.